Albanian language quirks and cultural nuances: S7E7

Language, love, identity, everything shifting at once. 

Two Americans who barely traveled before the Peace Corps ended up mastering Albanian, building lives in tiny towns, and falling for a place that completely changed how they see themselves. Their stories about learning Albanian in real Albanian villages, picking up slang and dialects, switching between Albanian and Greek, and figuring out daily expat life through immersion and community are wild, and honestly it reminded me how much language is tied to belonging. If you want to hear what fluency looks like when it grows out of real life in Albania, not textbooks, and how learning a language can change who you are, listen to the full episode.

Original publication date: March 21, 2021

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🤸🏽Music from
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and

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Transcript

Diana:

Well, I grew up in the US my whole life. I actually a pretty abnormal expat story because my parents still live in the same house that they. When I grew up, I've never moved ever, like, ever in my American life until I went to the Peace Corps. And that was the first time I had ever even moved. Like, I went to university an hour away from my parents. I was very insular, very American, nice way. I'd only been to like, Mexico and Canada. Very classic standard American, which is unfortunate, but it is a sort of true stereotype about Americans that we don't travel enough. And I was definitely living that and then went to the Peace Corps. And I decided after that, you know, to stay in Albania. Lived there for five years and just moved to Bangkok. So just Albanian, Thailand. Very new to the expat.

Steph:

And can. Can I ask what part of the U.S. you're.

Diana:

You grew up? Yeah, I'm from Plymouth, Massachusetts, which is like an hour away from Boston and Kyle.

Kyle:

So, yeah, my. My growing up was a little bit more complicated because I moved around a lot. So I've lived in North Carolina, Wisconsin, Connecticut, Texas, back to Connecticut. I moved to North Carolina. My parents now live IO I've. I've never lived anywhere longer than six years. Six years was. Was it. And that was when I lived in Connecticut the second time. But then, yeah, after that, I haven't lived anywhere for longer than. Or in. In one place for longer than four years. So I've just kind of been on the move. And then, similar to Diane, after I finished university, joined the Peace Corps, went to Albania, I kind of knew from, I don't know, high school age, university age, that my trajectory. Trajectory in life was international, was finding a way out and Peace Corps was the perfect avenue for that. So, yeah, got out with Peace Corps, we stayed in Albania, worked at international school there, and now we're here in Bangkok.

Steph:

Now, did you two meet and go do the Peace Corps together or did you meet in the Peace Corps, if that's not too personal.

Diana:

A commonly asked question. We met or we did not know each other before?

Kyle:

Yeah, yeah.

Diana:

So, yeah, we actually met in the Peace Corps.

Kyle:

Yes, we were the Peace Corps couple.

Steph:

That's really sweet. And you were doing Peace Corps in Toronto or somewhere else?

Diana:

No, no. So we flew into Tirana and then we went to Elbasan to do training for two months. But we were actually at host families outside of Elbusan in smaller villages. We were in two different host villages. Even we weren't even in the same host village. So we would only see each other when we would come in for training into Elbasan. Then you get assigned for your two year assignment all over the country. And Kyle got assigned in the mountains near Elbasan and I got assigned on the coast. So we were very far away from each other. Yeah, basically on two different planets. Which is funny because Alban was so small, but yeah.

Steph:

Okay. And did either of you study Albanian at all before you got there?

Diana:

I did, like casually with a friend just to be polite, because I was really AF of leaving and not being able to be polite, but my pronunciation was not as good as I thought. But we were very blessed to have the Peace Corps give us some introductory lessons. Although I think that's not what helped us the most learning it. Like, I don't think that's how we learned the most.

Kyle:

I, I went in with zero. Essentially nothing I knew. I mean, I had, I had read a little bit about the country. But as far as like language goes, there weren't a lot of resources online for Albanian language, which you may or may not know. So I think, I think maybe one day back in like 2014, I looked up a video, like a YouTube video, just to hear what Albanian language sounded like. And I mean there's, there's so much.

Diana:

More now on YouTube than when we left because like, it's so weird to think about the Internet as a new thing. But like, as you know, like YouTube was just becoming a thing, a big thing in 2014, you know what I mean? It was very much on the rise. Platform had just changed, people started posting videos. YouTubers were becoming famous. Now it's like the normal way you watch tv, which is so crazy. So now market is much more readily available then.

Kyle:

Yeah, I basically came in with nothing. And like Diane, it was, I don't know, interactions with locals, what lessons we got from Peace Corps, which, which were a lot in the beginning, but then after that they drop off and there's nothing.

Steph:

You both grew up with English, I imagine.

Kyle:

Is that true?

Diana:

Yeah.

Steph:

Okay.

Diana:

I, I like to check.

Steph:

Did you have any other languages at your disposal before Albanian?

Diana:

No. I guess it's not fair for me to just say no because I did take Spanish in high school. But when I say I lived like the regular suburban American life, I'm talking average America, like middle class America, you know, Like I had Spanish class, I was okay at Spanish, but when I went to college, I forgot all of it. Cause I didn't continue. So I was Exposed to Spanish, to some Portuguese that was around us. Ironically, there's a huge Albanian population in Massachusetts. I didn't know that. Yeah, I didn't know that when I was.

Diana:

And I only. Yeah, I had no idea. So I didn't know that the languages that were being spoken were so different and diverse. And now that I've lived abroad, when I go back, we hear it all the time. Which is funny. I lived there my whole life and I had no idea.

Kyle:

She could have been practicing before she left.

Diana:

I could have got a tutorial. I had no idea. Well, okay.

Steph:

Is there a reason why there's this Albanian population in that part of Massachusetts?

Kyle:

From what I understand, the first and I. I could be wrong, but from what I've heard from Albanians as well, is the first Albanian immigrant to the U.S. went to Boston.

Diana:

Yeah.

Kyle:

Wow. That was that. Yeah. That was apparently the landing place of the first Albanian immigrant.

Diana:

Albanian or church there as well.

Steph:

Well, who knew? Well, you guys do. But.

Diana:

Your language. Pre Peace Corps.

Kyle:

Yeah. So I mean, I would say like before, before Peace Corps, I was definitely exposed to a lot of other languages, but I was never like fluent or really more than, I don't know, basic conversational in a. No, that's true.

Diana:

You're a mean college.

Kyle:

Yeah. But basic conversation. Dad, I'm not.

Diana:

Okay.

Kyle:

Anyways, the point is. Yeah. Like growing up, I don't know, I remember as a kid I lived in Texas. That was when I was first exposed to Spanish because there are a lot of Spanish speakers there. And then as a kid, one of my neighbors and when we moved back to Connecticut, one of my neighbors and good friends spoke Spanish and German at home. And I remember hearing those languages a lot. Anytime I go over to his house, I had another friend who also spoke Spanish at home. So I remember like from a young age, exposed to languages is kind of like, oh, this would be neat. And I think I was in. Yeah, I was in third grade. They offered like an after school Spanish class for some elementary school students who are interested in it. And I. And I did it, but it was only like a two month thing. I learned like colors and how to count to 10 and those kind of things. And that's it. I dropped off. And then after that I. I did Spanish in high school up until like, I don't know, maybe my junior year of high school. So only three years of. Of Spanish. And then I took German in university. Go figure. I thought that would be different and interesting. And I had never really used it, my Spanish. I did end up Using more just because, like I would. I went on a trip in university to Peru and I got to use some Spanish there. I used it sometimes at like a little Mexican owned super supermarkets or little markets in town where I'd buy groceries sometimes. So. But that's, that's it. I wouldn't say I was never close to fluent and just pretty minimal basic conversation. Yeah, no, I'm being, I'm, I'm being factual.

Steph:

So for the folks who are watching this, who are like, Albania, Albania, Albania.

Diana:

Can we do a quick.

Steph:

My husband likes to do like, he's from Idaho, so he likes to do like. This is us. California's over here, New York's over here.

Diana:

Ida's up here.

Steph:

Here was the hand comparisons. All right, so if this is Albania.

Kyle:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Diana:

With the th and everything.

Kyle:

That's right.

Diana:

Really sorry.

Kyle:

This is Albania. Oh, okay.

Diana:

Okay.

Steph:

So where would Italy be on that in comparison? No, where would Italy be? I want to give people a reference.

Diana:

To Albania as a whole. And then Greece is my wrist. This is Greece. This is. That's, this is Corfu.

Kyle:

That's Greece.

Steph:

Okay, and now, now with that, that global reference. Now where did you guys live? Because you said it was in very different parts of Albania. So can you show us?

Diana:

So I lived like here.

Steph:

Okay.

Diana:

So the bottom of Altamira, which is a small Greek minority town on the, on the Riviera. It's very near and dear to my heart. There's some of my favorite people in the whole world. So it's like a home away from home for me. I still talk to a lot of them, even though we moved away. I keep in touch with a lot of my friends there. But yeah, I lived in Himara, down here. Where did you live?

Kyle:

I was over here in the Far east, like eastern, eastern central part of Albania, close to the north Macedonian border.

Steph:

Is that up in the mountains?

Kyle:

I mean.

Diana:

No, it's on the way.

Kyle:

It's accessible. Like it is. Like it's at the base of mountains. It's surrounded by mountains.

Diana:

If you wanted to drive to Lake Orad, you would have to pass the town.

Kyle:

It's. Yeah, it's called Libraj for people that are curious. So it's. Yeah, it's a small town. Less than, I don't know, maybe like 7,000 people. Max.

Steph:

Wow, that is small. Now, were you both teaching language or doing something different in the Peace Corps?

Diana:

We were doing two totally different projects. I taught English. I taught with a co teacher in a local high school. I went in and did my best. It was actually really challenging. But I did learn a lot from my co teacher. And yeah, I had a really hard time, but a really good time. And the expectation is just different. When you're a volunteer, it's kind of hard to figure out what your place is. But I did learn a lot. I also faced challenges because we were taught Albanian as the language of Albania, But I, like I said, lived in a Greek minority town. So even at the public high school, you would go in and you would teach in English. And then there would be the good kids who could speak, and they would translate to the kids in Greek or Albanian. And some of the kids only have spoken Greek for their whole life. Like, they don't really know. Even though they learn Albanian in school, it's hard for them. So I faced that where I had basically a trilingual classroom, which I had never done in my life. And, well, as I mentioned, I had only really been to Canada and Mexico, except I did one. I did a service trip in college to Uganda. So I did do that. I did leave the continent once before. I moved off the continent, but I'd never even been to Europe, you know, Like, I. It was. I was wildly prepared and unprepared for what I faced. It was really challenging. However, I learned a lot. I did a lot of tutoring outside of school and a lot of, like, English conversation stuff. I did a lot of translation. I. My best favorite project that I don't take any credit for at all, because my friend really did all of it. He created a tourism website for the Riviera. And he wrote. He speaks, like, four languages, five languages, like one of my best friends. And he wrote everything in English. And I just went through and edited it for him, like, to make sure it made sense. But I tried to keep it, like, quirky and local still, because, you know, you want to change everything. You want it to be authentic. But I spent a lot of time translating. And we're actually doing an update, which is exciting. And, you know, he's got. We've got all this time in Covid now we're doing an update of the website, which is a nice refresher on. That was like, my favorite project, I think. But it was cool. Like, it's the piece, Corey. When you think of it as American, you think, like, you just do what you're told to volunteer to do. But really, the projects you do outside, of course, what you go to volunteer to do is very important. And it was good, and it was great. And I learned A lot. And I hope they learned a lot and it was a great experience. But the more sustainable thing is the relationships you build and the time you spend in your community. So I had like, a lot of time doing language exchange and I spent a lot of time doing that kind of stuff, running an English club with some local girls and now they're in college, which is so weird. So, yeah, they've grown up.

Diana:

Oh, weird.

Kyle:

I guess to give a little bit of background of how it worked, like with our Peace Corps group, they only offered basically two sectors, as they refer to it. So you've got. There were the English teachers, which is the cohort that Diane was part of. And then I was a part of a cohort called Community. Community Development, which is very organizational. Yeah, organizational development. I mean, it was the organization that.

Kyle:

Anyway, the point is. Yeah, so they're two very, very, very different yet overlapping kind of fields and sectors. So I got placed with an. An NGO in LE as my primary assignment. World Vision, which I think actually is pretty well known internationally.

Diana:

Big organization.

Kyle:

It's actually a Christian ngo, which I thought was surprising. I had no idea they had a presence in Albania before I started with Peace Corps. Anyways, I was placed there and my counterpart, the person who you're. You're trusted to, to be with that coaches you along, was there for two months and then she got sent to another office to work. So I had to find a new counterpart, so to speak, during that time. But like Diane said, you learned that, you know, you're. You've got your primary project, but Peace Corps is much, much bigger scope than that. Right. So it's really your involvement in the community. So while, while I was there, I did much more than just work with World Vision and their, their projects that they had also developed an after school English club. Did a lot of work with the local high schools doing like, youth programming and activities. Did like a water. Water project where we, we applied for a grant and then used the funding to build a bathroom in a school that didn't have any running water. And yeah, tutoring. Tutoring was big. Spent a lot of time tutoring, working with people of all ages from like 5 to 65. And then as Diane mentioned too, like, also just building relationships with people in the community. Talking to people like every day, getting coffee, I feel like was my primary job.

Diana:

Oh, no, that's terrible.

Steph:

Let's dig into the language part then. I know my impressions of Albania, Albanian when I first got here, but I'm very curious what your first impressions of the Language were. How did. What did you think of the sounds or like the different stuff you were hearing and seeing? What were your impressions of the language.

Diana:

At first, for me, just because mine will be way faster than his.

Kyle:

Yeah.

Diana:

For me, I, like I said, didn't speak a lot of languages. I did have friends from other cultures, but they all grew up in America. And you're prime. The primary language you use is English. Like, I say this lovingly, but I was a little ignorant. So going into it, like, I didn't even know what they were saying, what the sounds meant. Like they were talking about certain grammar forms that in English I. They were like, you know, in English you have this. I was like, I don't know. I just say the words. Like, I. It was very challenging for me to figure out just like your first general impression because I was just hearing strings of words. You know what I mean? I wasn't hearing like, meaning. It was just. Initially it was just strings of words.

Steph:

And it didn't sound like anything else you had been exposed to at that point? No. It's a very different sounding language. Yeah. Kyle?

Kyle:

Yeah. My first impression, just. Just upon hearing it as we're talking about sound, it was. Yeah, it was definitely not like anything I had heard before. It's definitely not a Romance language in any way, shape or form. It's not Slavic sounding. Although there are moments where it feels like it sounds like it could be kind of Slavic. It's not.

Kyle:

Still very different from Greek. Very. Like, it's got those few, like, Turkish loan words here and there and they're thrown in. But, you know, it's. It really is kind of its own thing. And I. I don't know. I'm trying to. Trying to go back to what my first impressions were of the language. I just remember thinking this was. It was. It's just different. It was different, unique. It sounded nice. It sounded kind of. I thought so.

Diana:

I heard the opposite impression. I thought it sounded very blunt.

Kyle:

I think it depends on who you talk to, but. Or who. Who is speaking. Right. Yeah, but I. I don't know. I. I thought it had kind of nice, interesting, kind of like melody to it. It's not. I don't know, it's. Yeah, it's hard. It's hard to say. It's hard and it's hard to put myself back into that. That's that mindset.

Diana:

Almost six years ago now.

Kyle:

Over six years ago now, or close to six years ago, for sure.

Steph:

For sure. Wow. Well, I'm still just over two months here. And this is so weird to say, but I grew up with Albanian around me, but I never learned to speak it. And yet when I got here, I. I just was hit over the head with it. Sounds like Russian. And I know that's going to offend some people that I don't mean it to do. But the rough parts, I think, Diane, you were talking about, it sounded kind of a little rough.

Diana:

Those. Very blunt. Some of, like. Some of the language sounds very blunt and very brash, and you don't know what people are saying.

Diana:

Like, if you hear. Now that we've moved to another country, when we don't know what someone's saying, it automatically sounds already a little more aggressive most of the time. Then on top of that, they do have, like, a straightforward kind of louder language. I think to the American untrained ear, it comes off as, like, what's a loud language? I know.

Kyle:

I don't know.

Steph:

I think the consonant clusters and things. I don't know. It just sounded so Russian to me. And I never thought of that as a kid, but I think as a kid, I didn't know what Russian sounded like. And as an adult, I've heard it, so it was just weird. It took me. It took me by surprise. You mentioned that. Using the language, I think, is what is more of how you learned it than the actual lessons that you had. Is that. Am I 100?

Kyle:

Yeah.

Diana:

We had two very different.

Kyle:

Yeah.

Diana:

Journeys in that category. But that's mostly because I was in a Greek minority town for two years, whereas Kyle was in, like, an authentic Albanian town. Not that. I mean, parts of Humara, they're very album. It's very political. They're going to be like, you know, Diane, and they're gonna all come at me for this. But, you know, there is a Greek minority there, and their first language, their mother tongue is. Some of them is Greek. Some of them, it's Albanian. So I was never getting, like, pure. I was only getting pure Albanian from a few people, and then I was getting pure Greek from other people and a mix. So my first year, it was really hard for me to distinguish the words and understand when someone was saying an Albanian sentence to me. By using certain words in Greek.

Steph:

Oh, my.

Diana:

What. I mean. Or if it was like, a sentence to me and use words in Albanian. I ended up getting someone who became my. One of my best friends. I got. I somehow convinced him to tutor me in Greek. I don't really know how. And I was just like, this poor, sad American girl. So I think he was Like, I'll help you. You lost, little lamb. And he helped me learn Greek, and that made it easier to differentiate. Also, my own family spoke only Albanian, so I started to be able to recognize the rhythm in the language and just speaking and trying and being in situations where you try and it's either you get this correct and you buy the things you want to buy, or you get it wrong and you get nothing, you know, like, being in those do or die, so to speak, such a situations. Whereas that's what helped me more. What about you?

Kyle:

For me, it was really just come. So, like, my. My whole strategy towards learning languages or approaching languages, and Diane sees me do this all the time and goes crazy. Is kind of like talking to myself in my own head before I. Before I say it. And I. I can't. And she'll see, like, I'll kind of get, like, lost or start to daydream or something for a minute. She'll be like, what the hell are you doing? I'm like, oh, I'm just kind of doing my own thing.

Diana:

And like, for her, don't worry about it. Whereas I don't. I'm just like, is this water or am I asking for grapes? I don't know. You know what I mean?

Kyle:

Yeah.

Diana:

Whereas Kyle practices.

Kyle:

So I'll. I'll. I. Yeah, I'll do that until I'm confident, and then I'll just start speaking to people with what I know. And then if I've. If I've maxed out with what I know, then I just sit there and listen and try to. Try to absorb. And that's really how I learned. I just slowly built on my. My vote. My vocab started to slowly grow and expand over time. And once you know how to. Like, if you can conjugate verbs in the present tense and in the simple past tense, then that'll get you a lot of mileage. And then you start to figure out the different nuances of the language as you go along.

Diana:

The listening, too. That's a really good point. Is like, my Greek was way better when I could listen to my close friends, all speak to each other in Greek, because all first language would be in Greek. And then sometimes they would speak Albanian or English for me. But when I was listening, listening, listening, they would be like, aren't you bored? And I'd be like, no, I think it's interesting.

Kyle:

Yeah.

Diana:

Then when Kyle come to visit my town, they speak in Greek, and I could tell him, I know what they're saying, but I can't Say anything.

Kyle:

She couldn't reply.

Diana:

You know what I mean?

Steph:

Oh, yeah.

Diana:

Talking about. Because my vocabulary was getting a lot better. Not perfect. My Greek is far worse than my Albania. But I try.

Kyle:

And especially in the beginning, a lot of what I do is I just watch people's mouths when they speak. Now, it's hard with COVID to do that, but.

Steph:

Good point.

Kyle:

But pre Covid days, I would just. I wouldn't. I wouldn't look people in the eye. I'd just look at their mouths. I'd just watch. Watch how they were speaking and how, like, how they were forming, like, what shapes they were making when they were speaking.

Diana:

Putting the sound emotion did help a lot, actually.

Kyle:

Yeah. Those are basically the strategies that work.

Steph:

Cultural generalizations. Could you. Could you make any cultural generalizations when you were first learning a language? Because now you probably know a lot of both culturally and linguistically. But at first, were there things you learned, like language bits that you learned that you were like, that's interesting. We don't do that in English. That's a different. That's like a culture moment within language.

Diana:

I think it's interesting that Albania has a verb form, a verb form that will say, like, I. I am doing this verb to myself. I clean myself. I wash myself. Do you know what I mean? The reflexive verb of. Whereas in English, never say it that way. Reflexive verbs in English, never say it that way. Like, I will take myself somewhere. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, like, very distinct certain ones. But it's just. It was always really interesting to me that they always. Some of the verbs have a callback. You know what I mean?

Steph:

Yeah.

Diana:

The way that they are. Reflexive verbs are really interesting. And I also found that, like, slang in Albanian is really interesting because, you know, in English, we have really stupid slang as well, or nonsensical slang that if you were ESL learner, you would be like, wow, this doesn't really make sense. But I had never learned that from another perspective. So when I started to learn slang, it was weird because I was like, but this doesn't mean. This. Like, one of my favorite slang words is when someone calls someone, like, an idiot or a moron, we're just useless. They call them a bucket. Oh. Say it in Albanian legend. Call him a legend, which means bucket literally translates to.

Diana:

I heard someone say, oh, he's such a legend.

Diana:

All these things. I was like, what about him is a bucket?

Kyle:

It also means.

Diana:

Yeah, like.

Kyle:

And also means depending on context. Okay. Your body.

Diana:

It's so weird because that word, when you literally translate it and we learn the word bucket and then you hear someone saying like, God, that guy's such a bucket. You're like, what are you talking about?

Steph:

A bucket is useful though, in this case.

Diana:

No, no, dirty bucket. Big insult.

Kyle:

Well, what's for me about Albanian and now this? This might be. I, I don't know. Like, I've actually, I feel like I've experienced this and asked other Albanians about this too that speak multiple languages. But I feel like just very basic and simple conversations in Albanian are more exciting for some reason.

Steph:

Yeah.

Kyle:

I don't like. And I don't know how to, I don't know how to like express it more than just saying that. You know, like just, just having just, just basic chit chat.

Diana:

Yeah.

Kyle:

For some reason is more, it feels more intimate than in English.

Diana:

There's also more involvement, more emotion to mundane things. What we would consider mundane. Like, no one likes the small talk in English. Right. Like, how are you? I'm good. How's your family? They're good. And you just move on. But like in Albanian, it really does sound like more emotional or like building on it.

Kyle:

They're also, they're, they're, they're really good at communicating. They're good at communicating a sense that they're good at conversing with one another. I'll say. Like, they're really good at getting to, getting to know people because they're, they're.

Diana:

Not afraid to ask.

Kyle:

Like, the language is like, in the way people talk is very, it's very curious. It's with a lot of questions. So you start out when you talk, when you greet someone, you're always, you're asking them like five, five different ways of saying, like, how are you? Or how'd you spend your day? Right.

Diana:

How did you sleep? How do you spend your day? How is it going? How are you? Over and over.

Kyle:

But then usually it builds to something and then you start asking questions and questions and questions and like it builds to.

Diana:

Are you married? What's your salary?

Steph:

Do you have questions?

Diana:

Yes.

Kyle:

Yeah. Well, like people aren't, aren't afraid to like ask some of those personal questions up front so they'll get like right to the bottom of a hot topic or a debate really fast.

Diana:

Yeah.

Kyle:

And it makes the conversation really fun and engaging. Whereas I feel like in maybe in English or some other cultures, it's small talk and you might have to know that person really well or feel kind of comfortable around them or like kind of gauge their personality to figure out how the conversation's going to go Albanian, maybe a little bit less. So it's a little bit more like they cut to the chase.

Diana:

And I like that small talk in English ends. You know what I mean? It's the mundane thing to do, small talk in Albania. I think you're right. It's much more like. It feels like people actually care. Do you know what I mean? They're not just asking to ask. That's why they ask 500 different ways about the same thing.

Kyle:

Yeah.

Steph:

And I do find myself using a lot more qualifiers when I speak to Americans, like saying, if you don't mind sharing. Can I ask this. That kind of thing, than I do literally anywhere else in the world. Because I just. I've been outside the country during. When it's gotten more touchy to ask things. And so I've just. Yeah.

Diana:

When we lived in Albania, I don't think I ever said, do you mind or would you. Do you mind? You know what I mean? You don't ask, like, are you gonna. Like, here's a thing. Do you want this thing? You know what I mean? Like, it's very straightforward. I like that about them.

Kyle:

And. Yeah. And if it's something that you. You know, or trust, really, you don't really. You're not using a lot of niceties around them. Yeah. It's just. It's just to the point.

Diana:

Yeah.

Steph:

And it feels like if you did overstep in some way, they would just tell you and it'd be no big deal.

Kyle:

Yeah, exactly. We can.

Diana:

Or it'd be a big deal, or it'd be a small deal, but they definitely tell you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Steph:

And a big deal is not a complete deal breaker, depending on what it is. Yeah.

Diana:

Yeah, exactly.

Steph:

Yep.

Kyle:

Yeah.

Diana:

I don't know.

Steph:

Is there anything like you would tell someone who is starting to learn Albanian about what might help? Not resources, necessarily. Oh, Diane, you're ready on it. Go ahead.

Diana:

Find an old person. If you're a. If you're a male, typically it's an older male. If you're a female, typically it's an older female. And do what they do. Sit with them, listen to them, let them talk at you, even if you have no idea what they're saying. And I mean, like, your mom and dad's age or like grandma, grandpa, age, like one of the people. I speak Albanian. I spoke. I still do, but I speak Albanian to most and did my. Especially my first two years when I was really language learning, was one of my colleagues who was a 65 year old teacher, like waiting for retirement. Nice guy, just like wanted to get coffee and hang out and he didn't care if I didn't understand him or we could only get through a few sentences every day, you know what I mean? Like, he didn't care at all. He was just happy to sit and have coffee and Babylon about whenever. And he. Older people also repeat a lot and find that they're very, very patient. So they will be willing to repeat over and over again. Like my host dad and my host mom in the village outside Elbison when I didn't know, like fork and spoon and bowl and those things and they had to figure out how I was gonna eat, they would literally hold it up and say it over and over again, like, pun, giron, lube, Lou, you know what I mean? And it felt kind of childish, but that really is how my vocabulary got better is being around older people in Albania that don't know English, that are just going through their regular life. That's what I think is the best way.

Kyle:

Yeah.

Diana:

In my opinion.

Kyle:

No, I agree. I mean, and one of the things too, about, about learning Albanian that, I mean, can make it easy if you have the patience, if you have the time, if you're able to spend time in Albania is just hang out with people. It's a very social culture. As. Yeah. As I'm sure you've noted by the amount of coffee shops.

Kyle:

Just. That's just sincere. All of Albania, there's coffee shops everywhere.

Diana:

Even in the smallest town, even in.

Kyle:

The smallest town, nothing. There will be, there will be the coffee shop. So coffee. Sweet. So find that person, like, like Diane said, old, old person, whoever. Find that person who you want to go to coffee with and that'll help you learn. All I did my first, I remember in Peace Corps, they tell you this too. They're like, you know, your first two months are going to be real slow. Take your time. Say yes to a lot of things I said to coffee with so many strangers is walk up and down the block. I'd say hello to people, I'd greet people. And then eventually, like some people start inviting me to coffee and then that's how it all happens, you know?

Diana:

Yeah, definitely. That's another good point. Kyla.

Kyle:

Yeah.

Diana:

When an Albanian asks you to do something and it's safe and nice and you know what I mean, you feel good about it. Never do something wildly uncomfortable with, obviously, like, you know, be smart. But when you are feeling good about it and you know it's, it's going to be a good thing, like a coffee or even going over for a dinner some. They're so hospitable and nice. Like just say yes and go. And even if you're like, I won't understand a word they say, it does not.

Kyle:

Yeah. It takes a long time to learn. Especially if we. Like Diane said we were lucky. We had, we had the Peace Corps and they gave it. We had that two month language program, which is a nice base. But then after that it's what you do with it. Right. So like. So, I mean you could. Because after that two months you could. We had forget it all and not use.

Diana:

We had people in our group who just didn't need to use it in the communities they were in. Like they found people that they worked with who spoke good English or they had people in their friend group who were younger and they were in areas where they had younger populations. Whereas Kyle and I were in places where that wasn't as common. I did have a few people who spoke English in my town and Kyle had like one or two. Oh, like. Yeah, we had, we had a few for each. But primarily our day was hearing and engaging in other languages. And I think that is really what.

Kyle:

Yeah.

Diana:

Made it better. Like, it's very hard to learn in Toronto when everyone wants to speak English with you.

Kyle:

Integration. Yeah, integration was key and just being. Being around the language. Yeah, yeah. Like Diane said, I think because we moved to Toronto after we finished Peace Corps and people, people, when they find out that you're not a native Albanian speaker, want get excited and want to practice English. So I feel like we spoke, we. I mean, we spoke a lot more English there also because we're teaching at an international school.

Diana:

Right.

Kyle:

But it's much easier to speak Albanian outside of Tirana in my experience. Granted, if you've. If you've already got that base, then Tirana is fine. You'll be speaking Albanian all the time. But if you're trying to learn, I recommend going to a smaller town, going somewhere where there is a smaller amount of English speakers.

Diana:

Find someone old with them. See if you can go farm in their farm or something.

Steph:

Coffee? That sounds like a good plan. Such a good plan. How long do you feel it took you to feel confident in using the language? And I'm not talking about perfect grammar and all that good stuff. I'm just talking about being able to maneuver it to. To convey the meaning or the questions or whatever.

Diana:

I mean, it depends on. I think that's a hard question only because for us it depends on the stage of life. Like, within a few months, I was comfortable getting on a bus, knowing where I was going, asking for the price. Basic. Basic. Those things, you know what I mean? Like, I was comfortable doing those type of things, but I wouldn't say that I was comfortable in talking about things I wanted to talk about with people until, like, I don't know, eight or nine months into Peace Corps, maybe, maybe 10. That's when, in Albanian, I could talk about politics or religion or ask questions or have, like, bigger conversations. And even if I didn't know a word, like, I could get around it enough that they could tell me what the word was. Like, that's when I really feel like I was confident when I didn't know how to say a word. And I could say, hey, it's like this thing. And I don't know how to say it, but it's like this. And one of my Albanian friends could be like, oh, it's this. You know what I mean? It took me maybe 10 months. Yeah, maybe a year, something like that.

Kyle:

I. I'd say with just the amount of exposure we had to the language, especially the first three months we were there, I'd say by the time I was done with the language training, I was able to have, like, basic conversation with people. I could order food, a coffee, could talk to people. By the time I got to my assignment, my. My post in. In Lebrage at the ngo, I spoke to everyone in my office in Albania. And granted, full of grammatical errors and whatnot, but I. That's how I communicated my. Because my counterpart, the one that was there only for two months and then left, my replacement counterpart spoke no English.

Diana:

It's a lot of trial and error.

Kyle:

And actually. And the people in my office there were a few that spoke English but felt more comfortable speaking Albanian to me. And that was perfect for me because I wanted to speak Albanian. Selfishly, I didn't want to speak English. I wanted to speak as little English as I could. So, yeah, I. I'd say within. Within a couple months, I was able to have, like, pretty basic conversation. It took a while to get to the point where. Where I could just casually listen into a conversation, understand contextually what's going on. I think that took about. That took at least a year. And then after that year, like, you start building.

Diana:

Yeah, our first year was.

Kyle:

You start building really fast.

Diana:

The first year is the big build. Like, that's when you start to get confident in. What I'm hearing is correct, that I understand it the right way. I can ask Question or I can do this. You know what I mean? Like I'd say yeah, probably a year for us to be like confident in. No matter what the situation is. We can say something.

Kyle:

Yeah. You know, very. Yeah, I'm not feeling that way right now about Ty.

Steph:

We've also got a very different script. Yeah.

Diana:

Can't read it. We've got.

Kyle:

I feel like. Yeah. I don't know. Just give it. Given our circumstances with COVID and everything.

Diana:

Yeah, Covid's a big endurance on it as well. We'll get there. We'll. We'll get there for the two year mark.

Kyle:

We'll get there. We're also in Bangkok to much more international city. So it's.

Diana:

We'll get there.

Kyle:

We. We have to dedicate ourselves a little bit more to the language.

Diana:

Dial back our expectations too because I think we're both very different to learn and we're very into like we want to, like we're, we're so passionate about learning Albanian and using it and me learning Greek and trying to use it successfully and you know, that went so much to us and when we moved here we were like, we're going to do it and we're still working on it. There are things we can can say.

Kyle:

Now that we've got our taxi tied.

Diana:

Up say a few months ago, but we'll see. I think it's going to be the two year mark.

Kyle:

It'll take, it'll take a longer, maybe.

Diana:

Three, I don't know.

Kyle:

Just because I mean it in a way. Like with Peace Corps, it was kind of like our full time job to live.

Steph:

That's true. That's true.

Diana:

Yeah.

Steph:

And with a less exposure to people and you're in the big city in Bangkok and so there's a lot of factors stinging against you. Once you can go to a smaller place. Yeah.

Kyle:

And with the masks. I can't read the lips. Yeah.

Steph:

Well, I mean again, the script, the tones and just. Oh my gosh. Yeah, there's a, there's a lot going on there.

Kyle:

There's a lot.

Steph:

But with Albanian, like if you were to compare how you feel and I'm, I'm playing with this question. I'm not sure if I'm going to ask this. A lot going on. But I'm very curious if you feel different when you're speaking Albanian than when you speak English.

Diana:

Definitely.

Kyle:

Oh yeah.

Diana:

We describe it best as in English, I'm the confident, talkative one. I'm the one who's talkative and confident and sociable and like Outspoken and argumentative.

Kyle:

Debate or type A.

Diana:

Type A. When we're in Albanian, he is. He's that.

Kyle:

I. I'm kind of like nothing character almost.

Diana:

Yeah. We call him Albanian Kyle.

Kyle:

Yeah.

Diana:

And our friends who watch this will laugh because our close friends, we all call him Albanian Kyle.

Kyle:

It's almost like, what personality or something.

Diana:

I mean, I change, too. I get more spoken. I get those things.

Kyle:

I don't.

Diana:

Albanian Kyle.

Kyle:

I mean, I'm still me. I'm still saying me. It's just. I think I'm a little more. I become a little bit more excitable and expressive.

Diana:

You're just more outgoing.

Kyle:

Yeah, that's what it is.

Diana:

You become an extrovert. Because in English, he's much more introverted. But in Albanian, he's like the extrovert. The. And I think it comes from his first few months there not to be and psychoanalyze you, but I think it comes from his first few months there when he said yes to everything. He got so exposed socially in those social conversations. So it's so much easier for him in Albania.

Kyle:

And also, like, it's the social culture in the village, too.

Diana:

In the villages, for young men, it's a very social culture.

Kyle:

Yeah.

Diana:

Whereas in the village, I'm not saying all of Albania, but in the villages, it is a little more conservative for women. So it's not like I was out getting coffee every single day in the same way that Kyle was. I had my own. I had my own group of people on my own things, too. And I had another X Peace Corps volunteer that lived in my town, so I had people to be with, but it was in a different way socially. So I think that made me more of, like, a listener in Albania.

Kyle:

That's true. It's true.

Diana:

But, yeah, we're very. We're two very different people.

Kyle:

People.

Steph:

Wow. So you almost switch. Extrovert introvertness.

Kyle:

Switch roles a little bit in Hashtag Albanian Kyle.

Steph:

That's wild.

Diana:

Albanian Kyle.

Kyle:

Smut.

Diana:

Albanian Kyle is a trip. If we get to come visit next. Next year or whenever, when you're still there, you hopefully will get to meet Albanian guys.

Steph:

If Kyle switched over to Albanian, like, just saying a few sentences now, would it be apparent, or would it have to be during a full conversation?

Kyle:

I'd have. I think I'd have to get. Nah, I'd have to get. I'd have to, I guess, disagreeing with you, Kyle.

Diana:

But if you start. If you start on a topic, Kyle, you'll get. If you start saying anything. If you started Saying, like, I'm good, and this is my life here, and I live in Bangkok now. It could be about anything. He just gets so loud, and his hands are everywhere, and I'll be Kyle.

Kyle:

So what. What do you. What do you want me to say?

Steph:

Oh, okay. So the next natural question is, hey, could you, like, tell us something about yourself in Albanian so we can see this transformation? But that might be an uncomfortable thing to do, so.

Steph:

Oh, my God. It's completely apparent.

Diana:

This is the most embarrassing ever been ever.

Diana:

The eyebrows, the glow.

Steph:

You glowed. You glowed when you did that. You changed.

Diana:

He really does change.

Steph:

I have no idea what you said, Kyle. No idea.

Diana:

He's seriously another person. And it's funny, too, because when people listen to this podcast, his accent sounds Albanian. Mine does not. I sound like an American trying real hard to speak Albanian. He sounds like a nice Albanian boy who grew up abroad.

Kyle:

Sometimes I'd get that.

Diana:

Sometimes he gets villagey, sometimes he gets Kosovara. But pretty much everyone believes it. They buy into him, and they're like, hey, American lady. You sound all right, Kyle.

Steph:

Thank you for doing that. And I'm not making fun of you. I have utter respect for what you just did. And the fact that you can be that animated in another language.

Steph:

It'S seriously. It's amazing to me. I think that's fantastic. But, yeah, literally everything you'll see when the video goes up, everything about you changed facially.

Diana:

It really does. It's fantastic. Albanian kind. And for me, it's like I said, I'm more soft spoken in Albanian. So, like, if we were in a conversation, I would add in, like, a sentence and be like, I know stuff too, or, like, I'll talk one on one with people, but in a big.

Steph:

Group, it's harder to be fair. Diane, should we. Should we ask you to tell us something about yourself, too, so we can.

Diana:

Respect for Nears and Shipridge, Adam or Molly?

Steph:

You chatted my grandma just a little bit there. That was freaky.

Steph:

Like, oh, my gosh, you even brought.

Diana:

Out the hand and everything. Like I said, old people I hung out with. I mean, I hung out with people in their 30s as well, but I did spend a significant amount of time with old people.

Steph:

Oh, wait, I'm completely, inevitably bypassing something the listeners will probably want to know. Can you guys share what you talked about while you were doing that?

Diana:

I said that, like, Albanian. My Albanian. I'm a little embarrassed because my Albanian used to be much better when I lived in Albania when I was using it, and now that I live away. It's not as good. And I can't do an Albanian accent, so I know I sound American, but, you know, I am American, and, you know, I would love to do an Albanian accent, but it's just really difficult. And it's a beautiful language, and I have a lot of respect for it, but it's hard for me.

Kyle:

I said, I don't really know what to say. I'm kind of modest. I. When I. When I speak Albanian, I'm okay with speaking to everybody in English. I'm a little bit more reserved. I'm a little more closed in both. I'm sincere. And then I kind of trailed off, and then, yeah, blah, blah, blah, et cetera. Yeah.

Steph:

Thank you both for sharing that. That was fun. That was a lot of fun. Are there any. Are there any things you still are curious about, about the Albanian language that you ask people and you feel like you don't really get a reply? That's satisfying.

Kyle:

Oh, God, that's a. That's a big question. Can we focus a little more? Because I feel like for me.

Diana:

For me, I'd have to think about that. For me, like, the different dialects, right? So there's Albanian that Kosovar speak. There's gag, there's to. You know, there's all these other dialects. There's what we affectionately call shiplish, which is either people who live abroad or the speak Albanian and English. Shiplish. You know, we have a lot of that. And I just think it's so interesting that whenever somebody. Like, whenever we met someone from Kosovo, or especially when I was in Himara, there were a lot of tourists, so even people from the north who spoke gag, or people who even sounded a little bit more northern or used northern slang, or people who were from Kosovo, they could always understand what we were saying, you know what I mean, in Standard Albanian. But it was so hard to understand what they were saying. And yet I have Albanian friends who go to Kosovo, and they're like, I know what's going on. And I'm like, it's sometimes, obviously, yes, in general, I could understand when we visited Kosovo what was being said, or food at a restaurant. Just some of the vocabulary changes really impresses me. And I'll never understand how the dialects could be so diverse. Someone once tried to compare it to the US who was in our Peace Corps group, and they tried to compare it to the US and say, it's like, oh, southern drawl and Texas English versus, like, Cali speak versus, like, the Boston accent. I used to have a Little bit more of a Boston accent. I speak, like, standard American English now, but I. I think that that does. That comparison pales into how different the dialects really are.

Kyle:

They're very localized because.

Diana:

Yeah, you go. And some words that you say. And to us, like, people in gag are like, no, we don't say that. We say this. You know, it's very interesting to me how that all functions in one relatively. It's a large diaspora but relatively small area in Albania. And all these other parts have their own thing, but yet everyone somehow just knows that's their own thing. You know what I mean? I always found that weird.

Kyle:

Oh, yeah. Like how everyone. Like how a lot of people know the particular sayings of each region. Yeah.

Diana:

Like how to say fasule and when. Say groce and how to say. You know what I mean? Like, those small things. Or when to say. I can't remember the northern word for watermelon now. Yeah, there's a northern word for watermelon that I can't remember now.

Kyle:

Chump, cheese.

Diana:

And then there's a different word in the south for watermelon, which is so it's like. And then there's Boston, which is melon, which some people just use for all melons, you know, and then there's paper, which is one kind of melon. But some regions just say it's. This is a melon. You know what I mean? Like, I think it's just because it's not as well documented as some other languages that there's vocabulary that just, like, gets wishy washy around, you know.

Kyle:

I was just gonna say it's. Albania as a whole is a really fascinating language. Especially, I mean, when you're here, people are very proud to tell you that just despite like, Ottoman occupation, despite not being able to speak the language in their own country for 500 years, the language has survived, it has prevailed, and it's. And like, the first written accounts of Albanian are in completely different alphabets. They didn't have their own standardized alphabets until recently. So to me, all that stuff is very. Is very interesting, like the history and the development of the language and the. And now the modernization of the language.

Diana:

Is how important it is.

Kyle:

Yeah, it's so.

Diana:

It's crazy how. And this is all kind of all over the Balkans, too. Language is such an important part of culture there.

Kyle:

It's the unifier. It feels like, yeah.

Diana:

That people really care. Like in Himara, the Greek speakers, the ones who are ethnically Greek, they love that their first language is Greek. They are proud to be ethnically Greek, and they have some dialectal words that they only really use in that region, and they're so proud of it. Just the same as the Albanian speakers who are there in the same town. Tiny little town. The Albanian speakers who are there are so proud that their first language is Albanian, and they have this unifying glue of this language. It's very, very interesting. Albanians are very proud people.

Kyle:

That's also what I loved about being in Albania. And knowing the language, too, gives you more access, I feel like, to hearing people's personal accounts with history, family histories and. And all that. Yeah, we could do an entire podcast about that alone, I feel like.

Steph:

Oh, I'm sure. I'm sure. Wow. Well, you guys are in Thailand now. Are you going to be there for a while? Because it. It sounds like you want to come back here.

Diana:

Well, part of us does. A part of us will always find some fondness in Albania.

Kyle:

I'll always love the Balkans.

Diana:

I will always. We'll always love the Balkans. It's definitely not something we're ruling out, but I. I do have a work contract. We do have jobs here, so, you know, like, I have to wait. I can't really make any decisions until.

Kyle:

Yeah, we'll be here for a while after that contract. We'll be here for a little while, so.

Diana:

Or not the end if we want to resign, you know, so it. It depends on a lot of moving parts, but definitely the Balkans will always be like a home for us, and it's definitely a place we're going to visit repeatedly in our lives. And we sometimes play around with the idea of after a few steps down the road, like, would we go back or what would that look like? And it's definitely not off the table. I wouldn't say it's like the first thing on the front burner.

Kyle:

Yeah.

Diana:

But it's not off the table.

Kyle:

This is also like. I mean, Albania for both of us was. That was the first country we lived in outside of the US we developed a lot of personal connection there with the culture, people, language, all that. So it is and always will be very near and dear to our heart, especially the people. So we'll, like Diane said, we'll always be back when we. We don't know. That's the question mark. Yeah.

Diana:

I mean, especially people will. Yeah, the people. Thank God for the Internet, because. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I would. It would be a lot harder to say, oh, we. We don't know. If we couldn't still keep in touch with a lot of Our friends there, both expat and local, you know, we feel very close to a lot of people there. Yeah.

Steph:

If the listeners are curious about learning more about you, is there any place online on any of the socials that you'd like to share with them?

Diana:

Absolutely. They come anytime to my Instagram.

Kyle:

It's like, follow my Instagram.

Diana:

Yes. Doesn't really do social media. He's one of those people who has social media, so his mom knows he's alive, but really it's. And so he can follow other people. So, like, I tag him and stuff so his family can see. In fact, Kyle and Diane are alive.

Kyle:

Yeah, I'm not.

Diana:

I love Instagram. I'm here. I think Instagram's the best social media. It's because I used to be into Twitter and now I got rid of it because I'm all about Instagram. My handle is @lifeofdie. But between, like, it's like life. Underscore, underscore of, underscore, underscore, Die. Die.

Steph:

Okay, I'll have that in the show notes, but. Wow, that's difficult.

Diana:

It's not that hard.

Kyle:

It's easier than it sounds.

Diana:

Yeah, it's way easier than when you say it out loud. It sounds weird, but if you see it, it's written.

Kyle:

It's a life of die.

Diana:

Just with underscores in between.

Steph:

With two underscores in between. Okay. Well, it'll be in the show notes for folks anyway.

Diana:

Yeah, it's great. Life or die. I like to document what we do. We can do. It's been a little weird with COVID Yeah. I've document some of, like, I kind of talk about, like, being an international teacher a little bit what I can. Because, you know, a lot of schools have observationality stuff, so I try to talk about what I can and post about what I can. But we're also posting a lot about traveling. And we just stayed an awesome place run by an ngo. Like, we're trying to highlight those experiences. So. And we did a lot in Albania as well. So my feed, you can look through it, and there's tons of posts about Albania, about restaurants, about Toronto, about a ton about Himara. The best place in Albania. Just saying.

Kyle:

No bias there, huh?

Diana:

As well. We had our engagement party there. Like, yeah, you know, we had a lot of. We've had a lot of good memories there, so a lot of highlights. And the Balkans in general, we travel a lot.

Kyle:

Pretty much every Balkan country for me. Every Balkan country except Bosnia and Slovenia.

Diana:

I'm missing Bosnia and Romania.

Kyle:

Yeah.

Diana:

Yeah.

Steph:

Wow. Fantastic. Well, I'm following you now. And these pictures.

Diana:

Oh, my goodness.

Steph:

I'm trying to stay focused, but the closing of the podcast. But now I've got these cool pictures. This is difficult. I'm closing it down.

Diana:

You know, follow along. And like I said, we. I really try to focus on sensible travel blogging. Obviously, we still stay at resorts sometimes. You know what I mean? We're still people, but we do try to do, like, ethical tourism and homestays, and we try to volunteer. We try to do those things still. So we'll see if we can keep that up. Hopefully, Covid's made it a little difficult, but we'll see.